CMTV offers its understanding of schism and Tradical responds

JMJ

CMTV has posted its thoughts on schism here. I decided to reply - we'll see if they post my comments. Just in case ... here's what I wrote.

I understand that recently a CMTV moderator stated that the SSPX is formally in schism and that they are all in a state of mortal sin.

Wow, talk about hubris and a lack of catechesis.

P^3

Your theory primarily rests upon what constitutes 'submission' to the Holy Father. Simple disobedience does not constitute an act of schism, it is necessary to deny the Pope's divine right to rule. Now if the Pope had not required the SSPX to compromise on its points of conscience and they continued to refuse to obey a legitimate command (one that met all the conditions for obedience) then you'd have a case.

Concerning 'refusing communion with other Catholics', again there is a problem with the thesis as you have ignored the reasons for their recommending (not forbidding) against attending the New Mass, and seeking the Sacraments from non-ED communities.

The New Mass as promulgated is objectively a 'departure from the Theology of the Mass as defined by the Council of Trent'. As such the SSPX ascribes the label of 'evil' using the definition of an absence of a due good. Please note that this is concerning the rite and not the sacrifice itself. A simple example is that removal of the genuflection by the Priest immediately after the consecration. In the old rite the genuflection demonstrated the belief that the priest alone confected the sacrament and not by the power or faith of the congregation.

The removal of this genuflection is simply one point where the Catholic Theology is not supported and a heretical one is emulated. Similarly, the Ukranian Bishops in Canada have removed the filioque from the Creed in order that it not offend the Schismatic Orthodox. Here, as in the New Order of Mass, we have a suppression of an expression of Catholic belief to favour a non-Catholic belief.

This, ultimately, is the root justification that the SSPX provides for abstaining from attending the New Order of Mass as in this light it constitutes a danger to the Faith as the New Mass is a "banal on the spot fabrication" (quoted Pope Benedict XVI).
So, really this article is more of a caricature of the principles that guide the SSPX than a factual representation.

Now concerning your conclusion that the SSPX is in a state of schism. The CDF does not agree. The CDF states (when asked clearly if they are in a formal state of schsim) that simply they are "not in full communion".

CMTV would do better than to promote an incomplete perspective of the SSPX and go beyond what the CDF has stated concerning their status within the Church. (http://tradicat.blogspot.ca/2015/08/is-sspx-schismatic-like-cmtv-would-like.html )
God bless and keep you in peace of soul.
P^3

Comments

Auctorem Fidei

Can the SSPX be right about the Novus Ordo? Revision: Feb 11, 2013 On another web forum, I was engaged in a rather heated discussion about the documents of Vatican II.

Morning and Evening and other sundry Prayers

+ JMJ Along the theme of P^3 (Prayer, Penance, Patience), and for my own reference ... here is a collection of Morning and Evening prayers from the Ideal Daily Missal along with some additional prayers. In this crisis of the Church, I do not think it is possible to do too much prayer, penance and have patience. P^3

Comparision of the Tridentine, Cranmer and Novus Ordo Masses

+ JMJ I downloaded the comparison that was linked in the previous article on the mass (here) . ... a very good reference! P^3 From: Whispers of Restoration (available at this link) . CHARTING LITURGICAL CHANGE Comparing the 1962 Ordinary of the Roman Mass to changes made during the Anglican Schism; Compared in turn to changes adopted in the creation of Pope Paul VI’s Mass in 1969 The chart on the reverse is a concise comparison of certain ritual differences between three historical rites for the celebration of the Catholic Mass Vetus Ordo: “Old Order,” the Roman Rite of Mass as contained in the 1962 Missal, often referred to as the “Traditional Latin Mass.”The Ordinary of this Mass is that of Pope St. Pius V (1570) following the Council of Trent (1545-63), hence the occasional moniker “Tridentine Mass.” However, Trent only consolidated and codified the Roman Rite already in use at that time; its essential form dates to Pope St. Gregory the Great (+604), in whose time the R

Catholic Culture - The Edgar Schein Model Analysis of the Pre and Post Conciliar Culture

+ JMJ So ... I was thinking ... I've used Edgar Schein's (RIP) organizational cultural model (link ) in my research ... why not apply it in a comparison between the Catholic Organizational Culture - PRE and POST Second Vatican Culture? Of course, this will be from my own perspective, I'm certain that others will think differently. 😁 Also, apologies for a rather long article. Graphic: https://mutomorro.com/edgar-scheins-culture-model/ Below is a quick mapping of the cultural factors that I could think of. Since the Church is vast and composed of millions of Souls, it is necessarily a limited cultural map. Yet, I think it will still be useful to assess what has changed since the Second Vatican Council. Additional Reading: 5 enduring management ideas from MIT Sloan’s Edgar Schein | MIT Sloan Artifacts Artifacts are tangible and observable aspects of the culture being examined. All organizations have them. Walmart has their Walmart chant, Charismatics have their spe

Is it sinful to attend the Novus Ordo (New Mass) - Is it Sinful to Not Attend the Novus Ordo on Sunday?

+ JMJ A non-SSPX Catholic is upset over the SSPX statements on not attending the Novus Ordo Missae. Ladies and gentlemen, what the SSPX, or at least its website editor, is advocating is a mortal sin against the Third Commandment. Unless the priest deviates from the language of the Sacramentary, the consecration, and thus the rest of Mass is to be considered valid. No one may elect not to attend Mass simply because abuses are occurring therein. Might I suggest that such absenteeism is its own abuse? The Third Commandment binds under mortal sin. Father So-And-So from the SSPX has no authority whatsoever to excuse attendance at Mass, be that Mass ever so unpalatable. Source:Restore DC Catholicism Well, this is interesting. First why does the SSPX issue this statement? Because it is sinful to put your faith in danger by attending a protestant service. It is likewise dangerous to put your faith in danger by attending a protestantized mass (ie the Novus Ordo Missae

Tradicat

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